Iteratively Solving Time Travel

7 Comments

I recently watched the film Timecrimes, which got me thinking about the theories of time travel. Now I'm not a physics expert, but I have thought about these ideas for a while now and thought it was time to write them done.

I'll try not to spoil the film if you haven't already seen it, but this discussion might give away too much. The general idea in the film was the main character Hector was chased into a time machine and was made to travel back a few hours in time. The film did a good job of explaining this to the viewer with the aid of a diagram and naming of the Hectors. I have reproduced their diagram and will use it for my discussion.

Diagram of Hector time travelling

Hector 1 was being chased, and when he reached point A in time he entered the time machine and goes back. He is now at point B in time and is called Hector 2. Now the interesting thing in the film is that Hector 2 turns out to be the person chasing Hector 1 into the time machine! This is somewhat of paradox which I hopefully will explain.

Hector 2 is convinced he needs to chase Hector 1 into the machine, and try to recreate events exactly as before, otherwise his existence will end. Now what would happen if Hector 2 decides not to chase Hector 1. Will Hector 2 disappear? I don't think so, because Hector 2 has to chase Hector 1 as it has already happened. I think this contradicts the multiple universes theory where every possible action that can happen, does happen. Here, the only thing that can happen for Hector 2 is to repeat exactly the events that Hector 1 experienced in his time frame. Without Hector 2 even knowing, he will be repeating exactly what he originally experienced.

If Hector 2 was able to decide not to chase Hector 1, then I think the order of events would have never happened, and Hector 1 would have never entered the time machine. So as soon as Hector 2 is created, he has no choice (or free will) to change the events that Hector 1 (his former self) experienced.

The thing I find interesting here is how the chain of events happened in the first place, and this is where I have a theory. In mathematics many equations can be solved iteratively, and there are typically two outcomes. The equation converges to a solution, or the iterative process does not converge and quickly goes off to infinity. A fractal is a perfect example of this, as the colours of a fractal represent how many iterations it takes to solve the equation, or if it does not solve it is coloured black. This can be seen with the simple Mandelbrot set fractal with equation Zn = Zn-12 + c.


Taken from Wikipedia under the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike Licence.

Now, I'm of the opinion that for Hector 2 to have gone back in time and influenced his own previous time line (ie Hector 1's), there must have been an iteration of events, which lead to a constant non-fluctuating time-line that Hector 2 chased Hector 1 into the machine. For example, without Hector 2 influencing Hector 1, there must have been a series of events that caused Hector 1 to enter the time machine. After he enters the time machine, events keep changing until we get to a constant state where Hector 2 chases Hector 1 into the machine, and each time round the iteration the exact same set of results occur.

Now I realise the last paragraph completely contradicts my previous statement that Hector 2 was unable to change what was going to happen next in his time-line. This is obviously the paradox. However, I think once the order of events is in a steady state, the solution is solved and this is what happens. Until then, the time-lines can keep changing, until either a stead state is achieved, or it goes to infinity, in which case all the events never happened, and that branch of the multiple universe theory is not travelable.

The steady state may not be a single time-line where someone influences their previous time-line. It could be a iteration between two (or more) steady states. For example, lets use the Mandelbrot equation, and say that Z0 = 0 and we start with c = 1. The sequence of solutions is, 0, 1, 2, 5, 26, and keeps going to infinity. In time travel terms this could have never happened. However, let c = -0.5, we get a long sequence which eventually converges at ~-0.366. This is the kind of solution we observed in the film with Hector 1 and 2. As there are some starting events, which cause a sequence of time-lines to eventually converge where the previous iteration is the same as the next.

Finally lets imagine the situation where there are multiple solutions with a period. If we let c = -1 , then we get the sequence 0, -1, 0, -1, 0, etc. We can see this iteration has two solutions, 0, and -1, which flip between each other. Now, imagine this kind of solution happening with time travel. There are three players, Bob 1, 2 and 3. Bob 2 carries out a sequence of events that causes Bob 1 to turn into Bob 3. Now Bob 3 carries out a sequence of events that causes Bob 1 to turn into Bob 2. Therefore, depending on which iteration of events we are in, Bob 2, or Bob 3 is created from Bob 1.

One additional component in the film is that actually a third Hector is formed from Hector 2. Hector 3 played a minor part influencing Hector 2. Now this would be an equation in the form: Zn = Zn-1 + Zn-2.

Hopefully my ideas of iteratively solving time travel makes sense, and I'd appreciate any comments. As far as I know these are my own ideas, and I haven't previously read this anywhere. Also, as with most of my knowledge it has been collected from watching far too much Sci-fi :)

Edward Guise

Really interesting ideas. Do remind me next time we meet to discuss this with you, I think in writing everything down here would result in a rather large mess and me going round in circles of my own confusion lol.

The Hector scenario has similarities to the grandfather paradox. Assuming you travel back in time, the following can happen:
- Kill grandfather, you stop existing (creating the paradox)
- Kill grandfather, but someone else takes his place.
- Kill grandfather, but some series of events results in his DNA being passed on to your grandmother.
- Events result in you being unable to kill grandfather.
- Many more potential scenarios...

These cross over to Hector's scenario as:
- 2 doesn't chase 1, 1 never enters the time machine, 2 stops existing?
- 2 doesn't chase 1, but someone else does.
- Some series of events results in 1 entering the time machine, perhaps even at a later date.
- other...

So yeah, just a few quick thoughts. Tried to keep it simple otherwise as i said, id probably end up confusing myself.
In short, the potential of a paradox is why (I believe) most physicists believe that only time travel into your future is possible (here may be some parallel to thermodynamics, ill have a think and look into it).

2010-07-14 14:18:26

Dan Nye

I've spent a lot of time considering time travel (I guess most physicists have, haha), and I have to admit I do quite like this explanation.

Personally, I prefer more of an uncertain certainty though - events that have happened in your own observed past must exist, though obviously your interpretation of those events may vary depending on perspective.

For example, some guy pushes you off a cliff. You manage to survive, somehow, and think 'What a bastard.' However, if the pusher is in fact you from the future, you know that you survive the fall and may have damned good reasons for doing so that make sense at the time. Any event not directly observed by you could still be in a state of flux, mild flux at least, thanks to all those weird quantum effects, while anything observed would have to happen either way.

However, I do think that the iterations are an interesting way of arriving at this point, some sort of stability curve perhaps.

2010-07-14 16:57:13

bramp

@Edward, There was a grandfather scenario you didn't describe. The one from Futurama (and Red Dwarf if I recall), where Fry is his own grandfather, because he slept with his grandmother.

Now, I have thought about that situation, and under the assumption that if two people mate, their offspring will never have the exact same DNA as either of the parents, then this paradox can not happen. If it did the DNA of the offspring would degrade after each iteration. For example, at stage one, the DNA of the child is 50% the mums, and 50% the dads. Next iteration, it is now 75% the mums, and only 25% the dads, because half the dad's DNA is already from the mum. Eventually conception would no longer be possible because the DNA of grand father would be so damaged. (BTW My maths is a little wrong there, but hopefully you get the idea).

Anyway, I'd happily talk about these concepts with you Edd in person.

@Dan I understand the logic that any events not observed might still be in flux, but I wonder if they are. I guess in my iteration idea, each iterations refines the numbers, but if the solution is irrational, then each iteration is slightly different, but near enough to the final outcome.

Now if we could only come up with a way to test these theories.

2010-07-14 17:13:08

Nathan

Butting in:

The thing that I always notice about this kind of discussion is that there's the assumption that at a certain point the universe would 'notice' that things are weird, that someone has come from nowhere or whatever, and dramatic events would occur to try to balance it all out. For example, Hector goes back and becomes Hector 2. He stops chasing H1, oh no! There's a paradox there! The assumption is always that this is a great big problem, is there any real reason to assume that this would impact things at all? Isn't it possible that the universe just doesn't care?

2010-07-14 17:27:44

bramp

@Nathan I don't think its a case of the universe caring or not, but if H2 didn't chase H1, then H2 couldn't have existed. But I think that is a different school of thought completely, where there are multiple parallel universes, and as soon as you go back in time you are in a different universe that has no effect on your previously perceived past.

The universe caring concept is like that one in Donnie Darko, where in one interpretation, the universe has a problem, and Donnie is instructed (by the universe) to fix it.

2010-07-14 18:06:20

bramp

@Edward, oh just another quick thought. Does time travel obey the first law of thermodynamics (Energy can be neither created nor destroyed. It can only change forms)? I think it does, albeit with the condition that energy may have disappeared for a while, or extra energy may be in the system (for a short while).

For example, on my diagram, between point B and A, there is one Hector's worth of extra energy in the universe, but as soon as you hit point A the energy returns to normal. The net effect on the universe over time is there is no change in energy.

2010-07-15 11:16:07

Anonymous

Okay, Hector 2 chased Hector 1 into the time machine in this movie. He could not have of 'not chased him into the time machine' because it doesn't happen. That's it. Full stop. Don't even try to argue with this. What part of this concept do you not understand?

2010-11-14 05:03:01

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